Posts by moggy lover

16

Christ's coming (erchomai)--what event?

by M.J. in

the wts often quotes matt 24:44:.

"on this account you too prove yourselves ready, because at an hour that you do not think to be it, the son of man is coming.".

of course the application here is that christ is coming to bring judgment on the earth and end the current "system of things".. for example:.

moggy lover

Great post, MJ. It is always a joy when one sees someone add 2+2 from Bible facts and makes 4 not 3, or 5, as does the leadership of the WTS. To them Matt 24 is a nightmare trying to interpret, and I defy any average WT follower from telling us, without the use of WT literature, what any particular verse means.

Because there are, according to the WT leadership, parts of Matt 24 that have only one application, in the 1stC AD, [[vs 20] parts have a dual application both in the 1CAD and now, [vs 9-14] some have only one application, in the future [25:32-46, yes I know that this chap 25, but it is still part of the same conversation] etc etc.

To even a casual Bible student, the two words of prophetic significane used by Jesus,Parousia and Erchomai are used interchangeably, and though there is a subtle difference of meaning between the two, they both mean COMING.[ It must be remembered that this based on seeing Matt 24 as prophetic. Many do not, for legitimate reasons, feeling the the meaning of Matt 24 was exhaused in the 1st c AD] The subtlety lies in that, whereas erchomai simply means coming, per se, Parousia means coming, but refers particularly to a person of high rank, like a king, or emperor. Prof Adolph Deismann, in his book "Light from the Ancient East" goes to great lengths, using manuscript evidence going back to Ptolemaic times, to prove this. This no doubt was the reason for the WTS and its somewhat disdainful, and dismissive remark about him in the KIT [1st ed] pg 1161.

The WT leadership insists on seeing the two words as seperate units. The first, parousia, whenever it is commented on is always prefaced with the WT statement, Christ's"invisible presence". In the second edition of KIT, where the Deismann remark is dropped, the writers use several scriptures to show that parousia = presence, without actually telling us what kind of presence the NT is talking about. For instance one scripture cited is that of 2 Cor 10:10 discussing Paul's own "parousia" [Pg 1147 KIT B] It would take a truly distorted sense of "reasonig" to make this mean Paul's invisible presence, when in fact he was referring to his being beside the Corinthians, in the flesh. Making reference to an "invisible presence" is as absurd as referring to a "visible absence" In fact in Phil 2:12, where parousia is contrasted wih "Apousia" - absence, one might ask the WTS: If Paul was "invisible" when he was present, and also invisible in his absence, then what the hell is the contrast? The words would mean the same thing!!

In emphasizing that parousia means presence, and not coming, the WT leadership have deliberately obscured the fact that the word means a literal, physical, bodily presence. The force of parousia is that whereas it can mean a physical presence, when referring to a king or emperor it means a bodily coming as well.

If viewed prophetically, it is obvious that Matt 24, 25 is referring to something major and catastrophic in the future. As it is a future event, then the parousia/erchomai of Jesus is also future. as is the the existence of the "faithful and wise slave" At that time, if it comes tomorrow, we hope that we shall be counted among the faithful and wise ones mentioned in vs 44. Jesus is coming again, according to Matt 24, whether He is coming to "bring an end to this system of things" or whether He is "going to vindicate the tri-syllabic word Je-ho-vah" is the commentary of the WTS to divert attention from the Person of Christ. To a Christian, Christ is coming period. Literally. Physically. Visibly.

We are asked to believe it. Not to make a doctrine out of it.

Cheers. Keep up with your posts.

3

Their citizenship was in heaven

by Rooster in

*** sj p. 7 our view of the future ***.

separatefromtheworld.

as one might expect, this view of the future also had a significant effect on the first christians.

moggy lover

Interesting post, Rooster. Oddly enough, I was discussing this just the other day with someone, and I came across some interesting figures which the WTS has manipulated, rather than presented, to their R&F. In order to restrict the number of those whose "citizenship was in the heavens" to the simple round figure of 144,000 this is what the WTS tells us:

1 33AD : No of Christians: 8,000 [arrived at by adding Ac 2:41 and Ac 4:4] - WT 1st Sept 1981 pg 9

2 95AD : No of Christians: 40,000 [martyrs] - WT 1st Sept 1951 pg 518

3 1935 AD: No of Christians: 52,465 [memorial partakers] Proclaimers pg 717

Giving a figure of 100,465, thus leaving 43,535 to have existed down through the centuries. Simple. Neat. And whats more it fits comfortably into WT theology.

Also nonsense.

There are several things wrong or deliberately minimized so as to make these figures fit into a preconceived mould.

First, take 33AD: The WTS, by simply adding two texts together, has avoided telling us about the fact that Ac 2:47 says "The Lord was ADDING to their number day by day". Secondly, at AC 4:4, the text tells us that the 5000 that were baptized were men.[ The word used in that text is "aner" -men, as opposed to "gyne" -women] So, this begs the question: How many women were baptized? Dunno. But suppose I said that there were at least as many, ie 5000, how will the WTS be able to deny this? So in 33AD this is what the figures would really look like:

Act 2:41: 3000, + 2:47 many more added + 5000 men + 5000 women [ The figures in red missed out by the WTS] Rather than the paltry 8k mentioned by the WTS, if I know the Holy Spirit and what He can do, the figure would be at least 20k converts by the first year of the Church

Now take 95AD: The WTS admits that the no of martyred Christians was 40k. The problem for the WTS, and one they have neatly circumvented, is that this is only part of the picture. Because how many were not martyred? If to be perfectly reasonable they numbered 60% of the total, then this would indicate that the total number was nearer 70,000.

But even this is paltry. Because it means that in the period 33-95 AD the Holy Spirit only made 50,000 converts, or just on 800 a year. Taking into consideration that the Christian churches had spread to all parts of the Empire by 95AD, this figure of 800 converts a year seems small by comparison. More likely something in the region of 8,000 a year.

Then, according to the WTS, between 110Ad to 1935 there was a global Great Apostasy, where the "True Christian" church all but vanished.[ All unproven of course] This of course gives them a rational explanation for why they appeared so suddenly, like a pimple on the collective arse of humanity.

Now take 1935. This is the arbitrary date from which the WTS has started counting down the number of the anointed. But why then? How many associated at the time of Russell? His meetings drew in thousands, around the world, in fact it was a constant boast, the number attending, and his subscription list was that much, at least. In fact his books were printed and distributed in the millions. Where did these ones all go? Into a convenient black hole, it looks like.

Figures don't lie. And the blood of the martyrs who died in the second and third centuries, some 861,000 estimated in 284 AD alone, demonstates, in mute testimony, the bankruptcy of WTS beliefs. To arrogantly dismiss these uncompromizing ones as "apostates" is to display an insensitivity that reveals the truly monstrous character of the WTS leadership.

Cheers

17

Pay it forward...

by AuldSoul in

okay, so in line with the concept of the movie pay it forward, how can jws best save the most people?.

(1) murder is a sin.. (2) people who are repentant of sins are forgiven.. (3) people who go to hell (the common grave of mankind) are still alive in god's eyes, just sleeping.. (4) ergo, if a jw sends someone to hell the jw hasn't sinned.. now, that gets the basic doctrine stuff out of the way.. if every jw kills one thousand non-jw people there will be about 6,000,000 jws left.

if every one of these repents over the deaths of whichever ones didn't go to hell, they will have saved way more people than they ever can by preaching.. and, if by chance they miss out on everlasting life by helpig someone else to attain it: no greater love has any.... any questions?

moggy lover

Well, the last time I spoke to a WT follower, he had this looook in his eye.............

Cheers

42

1973 District Convention

by frozen one in

jw
friends

i spent the weekend with some relatives.

they have an fairly extensive library of jw material going back 50 years in their spare bedroom.

i was looking at a few items when i found a program for the divine victory convention held in winnipeg, manitoba in 1973. the convention lasted 5 days.

moggy lover

S2, Yes, I can confirm this.

The tract was called KN no 16: "Is Time running out for Mankind"? My notes, in fading green ink, tell me that there was to be a ten day period in Dec 73, when this was to be distributed door-to-door. My notes also tell me that the speaker [sorry dont remember, did'nt take his name down, but something tells me he was from NY Bethel] mentioned that this work was of such importance that breaking a leg would be the only excuse allowed for not participating.

Cheers

26

Would you say yes to a blood transfusion?

by Fisherman in

jw
friends

i would like to get some honest answers about your position on blood transfusion.

as we get older, sooner or later we wind up in the hospital and the question they always ask is"...in the event.. would you accept blood?

" faced with that question, i answered no.

moggy lover

Yes. In fact, already have. In 95 I was diagnosed with colon cancer and prior to surgery was told that because I was so anemic [lacking in hemoglobin] I needed a massive blood transfusion which would last 16 hours.

My gratitude went to the anonymous donor who has enabled me to live again. Thanks pal.

Cheers

42

1973 District Convention

by frozen one in

jw
friends

i spent the weekend with some relatives.

they have an fairly extensive library of jw material going back 50 years in their spare bedroom.

i was looking at a few items when i found a program for the divine victory convention held in winnipeg, manitoba in 1973. the convention lasted 5 days.

moggy lover

We in Aussie had ours in Sydney at the refurbished Randwick Racecourse. I had just been made an elder, had attended elder school, and was flushed with excitement at the prospect of the soon-to-happen "End of the World" as we know it. We went in a motor convoy with three cars from Perth to Sydney. A journey that took us, if I remember correctly, five days.

One of the gladdest moments of the journey was when we entered the town of Berri, in South Australia, we saw this sign strewn across the street: Berri congregation of JWs welcomes delegates to the DV DAssy.

Even remember the convention releases: Gods Kingdom of a thousand years, and the one book that is, I believe, next to KIT in its value as a WT publication, The Comprehensive Concordance to the NWT. My copy says: Released at the Divine Victory District Assy 18th Dec 1973, Sydney NSW

In fact the elder arrangement had only just begun, in 1971, and one CO made the remark, evidently with the blessing of WT HQ, that jehoover had revealed this to the GB only now, because the GB was going to need this arrangement to govern the New System effectively soon. Heady stuff.

Also all nonsense.

Cheers

19

Comments You Will Not Hear at the 1-14-07 WT Study (Love Neighbor)

by blondie in

comments you will not hear at the 01-14-07 wt study (december 1, 2006, pages 25-29)(love neighbor).

review comments will be in red.

wt material from today's wt will be in black.

moggy lover

Thanks again, Blondie great work as usual. I often wondered who the priest and levite would picture. Makes sense.

The story of the Good Samaritan has become one of the most truly inspired pieces of literature ever told, and more is the pity that the WTS, while at the same time claiming to be God's only true prophets, yet spends so little time on letting this simple narrative move them to good and noble deeds, benefitting all humankind. To them its only purpose is to serve as an intellectual vehicle for justifying the making of more converts and screening the R&F from outsiders.

Great job, as usual

Cheers

17

Looking for info on the WTS development of baptism ?'s & requirement's

by jwfacts in

in a recent thread blondie mentioned that the baptism questions were not introduced until the 1960s.

what do an interested person have to do prior to then in order to be allowed to be baptised?.

it got me thinking about the wts justification for the questions.

moggy lover

Hi, jwfacts, and Atlantis: Just an update to what I wrote previously. It appears that RF's obsevations were merely a summary of WT historical development, because some more information has emerged. Based on what RF wrote on pg 117, I might have implied that the use of public questions began in 1942, with the questions quoted therein. However it was while consulting this site, on an unrelated matter that I discovered, in the section listed as "Baptismal Questions" some additional information:

http//www.food4jws.com

According to this site, which is a Russellite Bible Student site, Russell did have a system of asking the potential recruit to answer two questions. The questions are listed, and do contain a reference to the Holy Spirit. The authority cited is given as "What Pastor Russell said" pg 35 Unfortunately RF makes no mention of this.

There is also a reference to a Wt of Feb 1, 1945, pg 44, which also lists a revised form of questions and which RF also does not mention.

Cheers

17

Looking for info on the WTS development of baptism ?'s & requirement's

by jwfacts in

in a recent thread blondie mentioned that the baptism questions were not introduced until the 1960s.

what do an interested person have to do prior to then in order to be allowed to be baptised?.

it got me thinking about the wts justification for the questions.

moggy lover

Atlantis: Thanks a million for the scans of the article from the Wt. Yes, pleeeeease, I'm sure we love to see the originals of the Wts that RF was using.

THNX, matey-mate

Cheers

8

Is there JDubs in greek speking countries?

by Shazard in

are there jw in greece?

i mean how do jw there push "this is wrong translation" argument, as everyone in greece knows greek better then anyone else could.

ofcourse koine is not the same as todays greek but anyway, i can't imagine that jw can push their argument about lousy translation of your native language!

moggy lover

The latest census report published in the service year for 2006 reports 28,047 peak Wt followers in Greece.

How the hell did the WTS convince these guys?

Dunno.

Cheers